The West Block – Episode 31, Season 11 – National
THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 31, Season 11
Sunday, Might 29, 2022
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Company:
David Lametti, Justice Minister and Legal professional Basic
David Frum, The Atlantic
Robert Benzie, The Toronto Star
Sabrina Nanji, The Queen’s Park Observer
Location: Ottawa, ON
Mercedes Stephenson: This week on The West Block: A horrific faculty taking pictures in Texas. 19 youngsters and two academics murdered by an 18-year-old gunman. A decade after Sandy Hook, why is nothing altering in America?
Beto O’Rourke, Democratic Candidate for Texas Governor: “And this doesn’t occur anyplace else on the planet. If we hold doing the identical factor, we’re going to get the identical outcome.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Commentator David Frum joins us on the politics of gun management south of the border.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “Canadians are remarkably united in eager to see much less gun violence.”
Mercedes Stephenson: The prime minister says new gun management laws is coming quickly right here in Canada. What are the Liberals planning? And can it imply harder sentencing on gun crime?
We’ll ask Justice Minister David Lametti.
And one final pitch to Ontario voters. Is Doug Ford in for one more majority?
Doug Ford, Ontario Progressive Conservative Chief: “We’re going to concentrate on our plan to get the province transferring.”
Mercedes Stephenson: We verify in with our Ontario election panel as voters head to the polls on June 2nd.
It’s Sunday, Might 29th, and that is The West Block.
Hey and thanks for becoming a member of us right this moment. I’m Mercedes Stephenson.
The dear faces of 19 little youngsters killed in chilly blood in yet one more faculty taking pictures are etched into all of our minds right this moment, the agony of the mother and father, and the questions on why the unthinkable continues to occur time and again in America.
Right here in Canada, now we have considerably stronger gun management legal guidelines nevertheless it has not all the time insulated us from gun crime.
The federal authorities has pledged to do extra about gun management, however there have been questions concerning the effectiveness of the proposed measures and whether or not sufficient is being accomplished to carry those that commit crimes with a firearm, accountable.
Becoming a member of me now’s Justice Minister David Lametti. Thanks a lot for becoming a member of us right this moment, Minister Lametti. It’s good to see you, clearly, tragic circumstances that we’re speaking in, although.
David Lametti, Justice Minister and Legal professional Basic: Yeah. You already know—look, I grew up close to Buffalo and in order that was a tragic set of occasions, after which what we noticed in Texas, once more, your coronary heart goes out to the people who find themselves struggling these tragedies and definitely we’re there in solidarity because the folks of Canada.
Mercedes Stephenson: And it’s clearly apples and oranges between Canadian and American gun regulation. Very completely different up right here. Far more durable to get a firearm. Your authorities has made further modifications to make that more difficult. You’re speaking about bringing in additional. I gained’t get into the general public security angle as a lot with you, as a result of I do know that’s your colleague Minister Mendicino’s job. However I do know one factor that Toronto police are asking for, and different police forces, have been harder bail situations for people who find themselves charged with a firearms offence. Is that one thing that your authorities is ?
David Lametti, Justice Minister and Legal professional Basic: Effectively, we did main invoice reform. It was began by my predecessor, Jody Wilson-Raybould, after which I completed after I received named minister below Invoice C-75. So there have been various completely different invoice reforms introduced in there and we’re nonetheless following these as they work by the system. Definitely, we’re all the time open. I’m all the time open as a minister of justice with the duty for the legal code, to take a look at methods of constructing the system higher. So I’m actually open. However as I stated, we’re nonetheless watching how that reform on Invoice C-75 is working itself by.
Mercedes Stephenson: One other query that has come up is whether or not there must be longer, harder sentences for gun-related crimes. And I do know that your authorities disagrees with necessary minimums. You’re eradicating that since you stated that’s disproportionately affecting Black and Indigenous Canadians, however what about harder, longer sentences for people who find themselves concerned and convicted of crimes involving a gun, and particularly, trafficking weapons in from the US, which is without doubt one of the greatest sources of unlawful gun crime—pardon me—unlawful weapons. Clearly the crime’s unlawful, right here in Canada.
David Lametti, Justice Minister and Legal professional Basic: Effectively look, that’s actually an possibility. We’re speaking about two various things right here. Minimal necessary penalties are, you understand, they’re on the finish of the dimensions the place there isn’t usually a public security concern at play.
Most penalties, severe crimes, they get punished significantly. Within the earlier Parliament, along with the C-22, which was then the minimal necessary laws, we had C-21, which did improve a sure variety of most penalties for these sorts of gun-related offences and definitely that possibility remains to be on the desk transferring ahead.
Mercedes Stephenson: Is that one thing you’re imminently? As a result of I do know your authorities is planning to doubtlessly usher in laws as quickly as tomorrow. Are these things amongst that laws?
David Lametti, Justice Minister and Legal professional Basic: Look, I can’t clearly pre-empt what my colleague, Minister Mendicino goes to desk. There’s a discover on the Order Paper and in order that’s all I can say to that. However actually, as a result of it was in a invoice within the final Parliament, which died on the Order Paper, I believe it’s honest to say that these sorts of issues had been mentioned once more.
Mercedes Stephenson: The vast majority of gun crime in Canada includes handguns. Your authorities has talked about permitting municipalities to ban them. Why not do this as a federal authorities and put it into the legal code? Why depart that on mayors? It looks like now we have hassle stopping the weapons coming in from the U.S. How would we cease them from transferring between cities?
David Lametti, Justice Minister and Legal professional Basic: Effectively look, we actually have taken measures on the borders. We actually have taken measures towards trafficking in addition to towards gangs and gang violence in the midst of our administration. And Minister Mendicino has led various talks. You’ve alluded to the promise that we made within the final electoral marketing campaign to work with municipalities as an possibility. Once more, I’m not going to pre-empt what Minister Mendicino has as a matter of cupboard confidence, however I believe it’s honest to say that that is on the highest of the prime minister’s agenda. It’s on the highest of Minister Mendicino’s agenda and it’s a really severe dedication that we made to Canadians.
Mercedes Stephenson: You’re a Member of Parliament from Quebec. There are two very controversial payments there. In fact, the invoice banning folks carrying spiritual symbols within the public service after which Invoice 96 as properly, which might have an effect on people who find themselves unilingual Anglophones or communicate one other language. Lots of people are saying it will disproportionately goal refugees and immigrants who come to Canada with restricted English and no French. They solely have six months to be taught it earlier than they’re banned from getting access to public companies in one other language. Your authorities has stated that you simply arise towards issues that discriminatory and but it looks like you’re so reluctant to problem these legal guidelines from Quebec in court docket. Why is that?
David Lametti, Justice Minister and Legal professional Basic: Effectively initially, I introduced final week that when the Invoice 21 case, if and when the Invoice 21 case will get to the Supreme Courtroom of Canada, we will probably be there making arguments. And I’ve outlined our discomfort and the prime minister has as properly with the pre-emptive use of the however clause. The however clause, many people bear in mind the debates of when it was applied with the constitutional change within the early Eighties. The however clause was meant to be the final phrase in a dialogue between the legislature and the courts. It wasn’t meant to be the primary phrase. And when it’s the first phrase, it precludes not simply political debate, nevertheless it additionally precludes judicial overview of the substance of it and it successfully eviscerates, guts the construction of the Constitution.
With respect to Invoice 96, I’ve to emphasise that as a federal authorities within the constitutional construction that now we have, I’ve to behave inside areas of federal jurisdiction. And I’ve stated from the start with respect to Invoice 96 that we’d be vigilant within the defending the rights of Canadians which are below federal jurisdiction or had been within the Structure or within the Constitution and we’ll proceed to do this. Clearly, there’s a problem with Invoice 96 within the sense that the entire thing is wrapped across the however clause once more. And once more, we share that very same concern concerning the pre-emptive use of that clause. However actually, I’m watching rigorously with respect to the implementation of that act, the way it impacts the constitutional rights—linguistic rights of Quebecers within the courts, for instance, search and seizure rights, rights of Indigenous peoples—inherent rights of Indigenous peoples and language rights of Indigenous folks. So these all fall inside federal jurisdiction and I’m ready to see how the regulation is definitely applied with a view to see if there may be Constitution or Constitutional violations there.
Mercedes Stephenson: Minister Lametti, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us right this moment. We recognize your time.
David Lametti, Justice Minister and Legal professional Basic: Thanks.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, there are gun management payments earlier than U.S. lawmakers. However even within the wake of yet one more lethal faculty taking pictures, there may be political gridlock.
We’ll communicate with political commentator, David Frum concerning the American politics across the gun debate, subsequent.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: U.S. President Joe Biden is assembly with the households of the college taking pictures victims in Uvalde, Texas right this moment. There have been 27 faculty shootings thus far this 12 months alone in America.
In Biden’s handle final week, the president lamented the failure of Congress to go what he calls frequent sense gun legal guidelines.
U.S. President Joe Biden: “Why are we keen to dwell with this carnage? Why can we hold letting this occur? The place in God’s identify is our spine to have the braveness to cope with it and stand as much as the lobbies?”
Mercedes Stephenson: To higher perceive the political local weather on this concern, I’m joined by Atlantic workers author and commentator, David Frum. Thanks a lot for becoming a member of us right this moment, Mr. Frum.
David Frum, The Atlantic: Thanks.
Mercedes Stephenson: I believe that why query is the one which so many Canadians really feel to the core of their being. Why is that this the scenario in America?
David Frum, The Atlantic: If you happen to put the query to a nationwide referendum vote: Do you need to ban the AR-15 rifle? Sure or no? You’d have, in accordance with most polls, about 52 per cent would say sure, however 42 per cent would say no. This can be a 50/40 query. American public opinion is fairly strongly in favour of some measure of management. So it’s not a query about American tradition or American attitudes. It’s a query concerning the American political system. Why do the 40 win? Why do the 50 lose?
Mercedes Stephenson: And why do the 40 win and the 50 lose?
David Frum, The Atlantic: Effectively the American political system shouldn’t be consultant. And it’s not consultant in any random means. It favours sure sorts of views over others. It’s tilted towards rural areas. It’s tilted towards wealthier areas. It’s tilted towards the smaller states and it’s tilted to the extra rural components of these smaller states. It’s additionally vastly influenced by courts which are transferring farther and farther away from public opinion.
Someday in June, the Supreme Courtroom will hand down a call in a lawsuit towards the State of New York. Within the State of New York, it’s not authorized to hold a gun in your individual as you stroll round on the road. Some folks introduced a lawsuit difficult that and it appears like they’re going to win, that the Supreme Courtroom will say in each state within the nation there’s a constitutional proper to hold a gun in your individual. In order that’s not about the place public opinion is. That’s the place about establishments are. So the query you must ask is: Why did the establishments fail not what’s incorrect with Individuals as folks.
Mercedes Stephenson: And do you assume that that is the purpose the place establishments change? Is that this the watershed second? Others say look, Sandy Hook occurred. That didn’t change something, neither will this. Some folks assume possibly that is the one which makes the distinction. What are your ideas?
David Frum, The Atlantic: Effectively I’ve a bitter fact on that, which is folks say nothing modified after Sandy Hook, however really rather a lot modified. Issues received worse. Many states handed legal guidelines to make it simpler to hold extra weapons into extra locations, to make it simpler to hold weapons in public. So Sandy Hook, what occurs after these massacres, these massacres are excellent for the gun enterprise? The minority that need an increasing number of weapons, about 3 per cent of Individuals by the way in which, personal half the weapons within the nation, a mean of 17 weapons per individual amongst that 3 per cent. In order that group, any time there’s a bloodbath, thinks oh my God, I may be unable to get my 18th gun. And they also rush out and purchase extra weapons. So the massacres are good for enterprise. And states reply to the massacres by tilt—that’s what occurred after Sandy Hook—by tilting the regulation an increasing number of in favour of that 3 per cent who personal a mean of 17 weapons every. But when issues can change for the more serious, they will change for the higher. And I believe there—I’m not going to make any prediction about whether or not that is the bloodbath that may do it, or whether or not it’s the subsequent one, or the one after that, however I do firmly consider that ultimately the forces of decency and kindness in American life are going to beat the forces of grief and blood.
Mercedes Stephenson: Is there some type of restricted gun management that you simply assume has an opportunity of constructing it by Congress? Is there any type of center floor that the Republicans and the Democrats can transfer in direction of? Or is that this such a polarizing concern that the Republicans will vote towards something that modifications gun management and will increase it?
David Frum, The Atlantic: Effectively there are measures that might be accomplished on the state stage. And one of many issues that the states may do, for instance, is prohibit and rollback the legal guidelines which were handed since Sandy Hook. I’m certain folks have seen these photos of males carrying rifles into the Tastee Freeze whereas they purchase a frozen deal with. You don’t should put up with that. You don’t should have hid carry in every single place. So there are lot of those micro modifications that may occur and that may be accomplished by the state stage. And I believe ultimately, it’s solely a matter of time earlier than Congress acts, too. It’s additionally attainable that this most up-to-date horrible occasion might have some influence on the home politics of the state of Texas.
Mercedes Stephenson: And naturally, we noticed Beto present up and he was very upset. He needed to depart the press convention. He received kicked out. The present governor of Texas is standing by all the things they’ve accomplished. They’re additionally coming below intense criticism for the police response, allegations {that a} police tactical crew was there for nearly an hour earlier than they went into the college. How do you see that enjoying out?
David Frum, The Atlantic: Effectively that’s the place it will get very highly effective, as a result of individuals are going to say the police had been cowardly, the police didn’t reply. To which the police are going to say properly there was a person inside taking pictures a excessive powered firearm. What did you anticipate us to do? And I believe that triggers a thought, properly if a person with a excessive powered rifle is simply too troublesome for 19 cops to beat, possibly it must be harder for that man to get a excessive powered rifle. Lots of these modifications are going to return within the state of Texas not on the governor stage. Texas is without doubt one of the weakest governorships in the entire nation. However state legislatures, in the event you can have modifications on the Uvalde stage, if in case you have modifications on the county stage, in the event you can have modifications on the municipal stage, in the event you’re going to have modifications within the state Meeting and the state Senate, then you can also make some actual variations.
Keep in mind, the advocates of weapons in every single place perceive how weak their place is. That’s why they attempt to shutdown democratic debate. That’s why they’re attempting to maneuver this entire dialogue from the legislatures to the courts. It’s as a result of they know the general public opinion shouldn’t be in the end on their aspect. They’re a militant and arranged minority that depend upon the indifference of the bulk.
Mercedes Stephenson: David Frum, thanks for becoming a member of us right this moment, sir.
David Frum, The Atlantic: Thanks very a lot.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, with solely 4 extra days till Ontario voters head to the polls, our election panel is again to speak about why the race to second place could be the tightest contest there may be.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: With 4 days left in Ontario’s election marketing campaign, it appears like incumbent Doug Ford is ready to steer the Progressive Conservatives to a second time period as authorities.
Our Ontario election panel is again to take a look at these remaining days of the marketing campaign. Robert Benzie is the Queen’s Park Bureau Chief with The Toronto Star, and Sabrina Nanji is the founding father of The Queen’s Park Observer.
It has been a outstanding marketing campaign to observe. Lots of people thought Doug Ford had main vulnerabilities going into this. Every part from his dealing with of the pandemic and long-term care dwelling houses, to a few of the scandals that had plagued his caucus, his cupboard and at instances, him. He didn’t carry out notably properly within the election debate. He hasn’t made himself obtainable for one-on-one interviews and at instances, he’s been type of MIA on the marketing campaign path, however none of that appears to have affected him. What do you assume his secret sauce is?
Robert Benzie, The Toronto Star: Effectively Mercedes, I believe that one motive that Premier Ford is doing pretty properly on the marketing campaign is his competitors shouldn’t be that arduous. I imply, it’s not that powerful. He got here into this marketing campaign with a lead and he appears like he has a lead as we enter the ultimate days. So, I imply he’s been enjoying it protected. He has accomplished one media interview with The Toronto Star really, my paper, however he has been largely avoiding one-on-one TV interviews, issues like that and enjoying it protected, being further cautious. And I believe it’s a basic frontrunner marketing campaign.
Mercedes Stephenson: Sabrina, what do you assume?
Sabrina Nanji, The Queen’s Park Observer: Yeah, this clearly is a technique that appears to be working for Ford and to even one other extent, his candidates. I imply we’ve seen Ford, he was up daily nearly throughout the pandemic, the peak of COVID, and he has put his foot in his mouth previously. I imply simply eager about that province-wide debate that you simply talked about, Liberal chief Steven Del Dulca was type of pressured to truth verify him on the fly after he was making claims about them elevating the fuel tax, and it type of has come right down to dangers versus reward. You already know Ford and the PC’s are main handily within the polls and it in all probability helps his marketing campaign that he’s not making massive splashy headlines, day by day. They need him to remain on message. We noticed an identical technique with dozens of PC candidates skipping out on native debates. If you happen to ask the PC warfare room, they are saying they’d moderately be door knocking, nevertheless it’s additionally a legal responsibility, proper? You possibly can have protesters present up at these occasions. Nurses and autism households have been going arduous on that entrance. After which there’s the danger of, you understand, Ford himself going into unscripted territory, which now we have seen. So this can be a very tightly managed marketing campaign. However on the finish of the day, it’s accountability and the general public that suffers.
Mercedes Stephenson: Yeah, I believe it’s such a giant query. We’ve seen it on the federal stage, too, the place politicians merely keep away from alternatives the place they assume they might make errors that would price them, nevertheless it means much less transparency, much less entry, much less data for voters. That stated, you understand, there may be plenty of issues that the opposition may have dug into successfully right here, Robert. Steven Del Duca, the Liberal chief might not even win his seat. There appears to be a best competitors for second place, as you’ve each been saying. Why do you assume the opposition has carried out so poorly on this election?
Robert Benzie, The Toronto Star: Effectively Mercedes, one of many issues is I believe some folks thought that this marketing campaign could be a re-litigation of Ford’s pandemic efficiency. And for no matter motive, it hasn’t been. I don’t know if it’s as a result of Ontarians are fed up speaking about COVID-19, as everybody in every single place on this planet is, or if it’s as a result of individuals are saying, you understand what? It wasn’t as unhealthy right here because it was elsewhere. Quebec simply throughout the river from the place you might be, 2,000 extra folks died of COVID-19 than died in Ontario, but Quebec solely has 57 per cent of the inhabitants. We didn’t have the curfews that François Legault put in place in that province, though we had very lengthy lockdowns and our children had been out of faculty in-class studying for longer than anyplace else in North America. However for no matter motive, the issues that Ford had throughout the pandemic haven’t dogged him and I don’t know if it’s as a result of Steven Del Duca and Andrea Horwath haven’t been capable of get one thing to stay or if it’s as a result of voters are saying you understand what? I’m unsure that they might have accomplished something that in another way.
Mercedes Stephenson: Sabrina, do you assume that Steven Del Duca and Andrea Horwath grasp on to their positions as chief after this election or their celebration’s going to forgive them? Or do you assume that they’re going to be searching for new management?
Sabrina Nanji, The Queen’s Park Observer: Yeah, I imply there’s rather a lot at play right here. You already know, the Liberal Social gathering itself, they’ve their very own inside guidelines the place in the event you don’t win the premier seat, which as we all know the Liberals had been decimated in 2018 with going from seven seats to, you understand, taking the premier spot will probably be an enormous feat for them. However then Del Dulca will probably be going through a management overview. If he doesn’t win his personal seat however nonetheless types Official Opposition, I believe they’ll nonetheless hold him round. However in fact, there’ll be plenty of questions on how the marketing campaign was run.
We all know NDP Chief Andrea Horwath. That is her fourth kick on the can as chief, seemingly her final, too. You already know, there’s this 901 membership that has been forming behind the scenes the place within the second polls shut at 9 pm subsequent Thursday, they’ll be, you understand, instantly pressuring her to step apart if she doesn’t win. So that is going to be a possibility for these events to reset.
And to Benzie’s level, I believe, you understand, they’ve had hassle capitalizing on a few of the missteps the Ford authorities has made throughout the pandemic, however you understand, on the finish of the day, throughout COVID, folks don’t actually need to hear from the opposition events essentially, though there was rather a lot for them to, you understand, hound the PC’s on since you type of need to hear from the powers that be.
Mercedes Stephenson: The 901 membership, that’s fairly brutal one minute after. We simply have a few moments left so I’m going to do an excellent fast lightning spherical with every of you about what do you assume goes to be the largest potential pitfall or acquire this week? Beginning with you, Robert.
Robert Benzie, The Toronto Star: Effectively you understand, Mercedes, if affordability points proceed to canine the governing celebration, it may chew Doug Ford. Persons are nervous concerning the value of gasoline. They’re nervous concerning the value of groceries. To this point, that stuff hasn’t caught to him. However he has presided over a time when inflation is getting actually excessive. It’s not his fault, nevertheless it’s not Justin Trudeau’s fault both and it’s hurting the Trudeau Liberals federally. So it’ll be fascinating to see if it hurts the Ford Conservatives.
Mercedes Stephenson: Thanks. Sabrina, remaining phrase to you.
Sabrina Nanji, The Queen’s Park Observer: Yeah, I believe, you understand, we’re going to see much more candidate controversies popping out. On the finish of the day, although, that is type of inside baseball and I’m unsure if it’s actually going to stay to the opposition events. I’ll be paying shut consideration to the place the leaders are headed within the final week. I believe the NDP will probably be attempting to shore up the seats they did win. The Liberals will probably be across the 416 and the 905. It’s the place they will take advantage of beneficial properties. And if the Conservatives are feeling assured, they’ll be hanging round in NDP territory, which we’ve seen this week with Ford rallying in Hamilton. So I’ll be paying shut consideration the itineraries for certain.
Mercedes Stephenson: It’ll be very fascinating to see the outcomes and if it’s what the pollsters are predicting. Thanks very a lot Robert and Sabrina for becoming a member of us.
That’s it for our present for right this moment. Thanks for watching. I hope to see you right here subsequent Sunday. For The West Block, I’m Mercedes Stephenson.
